Vinegar: a systemic herbicide?

Eddy · Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 46

When vinegar is used as a herbicide, does it act systemically?

I am about to prepare a drainfield site (i.e. from our septic tank) for
planting with shallow-rooted ground cover. It is currently grassed, and
because of being a drainfield site (and also a front lawn!) the grass
grows luxuriantly and needs cutting every week. Shallow-rooted ground
cover will be much better, less demanding in terms of maintenance. So
the question is: how to kill the grass without harming or disturbing the
soil?

It seems the alternatives are spraying with Roundup (Glycosphate) or
spraying with vinegar. I would prefer to use vinegar because I
understand that the residue actually enriches the soil. However, if
vinegar doesn't work systemically we could find that new grass appears
from unkilled roots after the groundcover has been planted, and that
would be a problem.

I have read that traces of Glycosphate CAN still be found in soil two
years after spraying. This may disturb the delicate drainfield. It may
also retard the growth of groundcover. Also, our drainfield-lawn is on
a slope at the bottom of which is a line of hedge and bushes so if toxic
glycosphate residue remains in the soil for up to two years it may well
drift downhill in that time and retard the established hedge and bushes.

I would like to use vinegar on the grass, provided it has a permanent
effect on the roots.

Has anyone experience or knowledge of this?

Eddy.

Archived from group: uk>rec>gardening

Nick Maclaren · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 430

In article ,
Eddy writes:
|>
|> When vinegar is used as a herbicide, does it act systemically?

That is not a question Smile

|> I would like to use vinegar on the grass, provided it has a permanent
|> effect on the roots.

Not merely doesn't it have a permanent effect on the roots, it
doesn't have a significant effect on the leaves. It is purely and
simply a weak acid. You shouldn't take so much notice of the New
Age Merkins (which is where I assume that you heard of vinegar as a
herbicide and the other myths you have picked up).

Glyphosate should do what you want, and will not impair the planting
of groundcover, but may need several applications for deep-rooted
perennial weeds. It will not cause the trouble you are afraid of
in any normal soils. Alternatively, sodium chlorate will degrade to
salt, which will wash away, but will need repeated applications.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Eddy · Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 46

Nick Maclaren wrote:

> |> When vinegar is used as a herbicide, does it act systemically?
>
> That is not a question Smile

? You mean all herbicides ARE systemic? What I meant, more accurately
I admit, is "When vinegar is used instead of a herbicide but for the
same purpose as a herbicide, does it act systemically?"

> |> I would like to use vinegar on the grass, provided it has a permanent
> |> effect on the roots.
>
> Not merely doesn't it have a permanent effect on the roots, it
> doesn't have a significant effect on the leaves. It is purely and
> simply a weak acid. You shouldn't take so much notice of the New
> Age Merkins (which is where I assume that you heard of vinegar as a
> herbicide and the other myths you have picked up).

No, actually the United States Department of Agriculture is doing a lot
of investigation into the use of vinegar and apparently USA garden
centres have long stocked strong vinegar specifically for this purpose.
All news to me too, but true. See:

http://search.usda.gov/search?q=vinegar&requiredfields=spsite_id%3A12650400%7Cspsite_id%3A12-50-00-00&x=0&y=0&btnG=Go%21&filter=0&as_sitesearch=ars.usda.gov&ie=&output=xml_no_dtd&client=usda&lr=&proxystylesheet=ARS&oe=

> Glyphosate should do what you want, and will not impair the planting
> of groundcover, but may need several applications for deep-rooted
> perennial weeds. It will not cause the trouble you are afraid of
> in any normal soils. Alternatively, sodium chlorate will degrade to
> salt, which will wash away, but will need repeated applications.

Thanks very much, Nick, for your assurance re. Glyphosate. Have you
used it yourself for turning a lawn into a garden?

My concern about it was triggered by the following summary of research:

http://unofficiallyoptimistic.com/?p=24

Eddy.

Eddy · Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 46

I orginally asked about "Roundup (Glycosphate)" but after Nick's post,
above, I see that although there are scores of references to Glycosphate
(Roundup) on the web, it appears to be a common mispelling of
"glyphosate". Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Eddy.

Nick Maclaren · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 430

In article ,
Eddy writes:
|>
|> > |> I would like to use vinegar on the grass, provided it has a permanent
|> > |> effect on the roots.
|> >
|> > Not merely doesn't it have a permanent effect on the roots, it
|> > doesn't have a significant effect on the leaves. It is purely and
|> > simply a weak acid. You shouldn't take so much notice of the New
|> > Age Merkins (which is where I assume that you heard of vinegar as a
|> > herbicide and the other myths you have picked up).
|>
|> No, actually the United States Department of Agriculture is doing a lot
|> of investigation into the use of vinegar and apparently USA garden
|> centres have long stocked strong vinegar specifically for this purpose.
|> All news to me too, but true. See:
|>
|> http://search.usda.gov/search?q=vinegar&requiredfields=
|> spsite_id%3A12650400%7Cspsite_id%3A12-50-00-00&x=0&y=0&btnG=
|> Go%21&filter=0&as_sitesearch=ars.usda.gov&ie=&output=xml_no_
|> dtd&client=usda&lr=&proxystylesheet=ARS&oe=

A quick glance at a few of those confirms my statement. Some plants
suffer leaf burn from it, fairly badly, and others don't. And that
is ALL that it does by way of being a herbicide - you can get the same
effect by peeing on plants, and urea is also a fertiliser. Or you could
water them with brine - that also causes leaf burn.

|> > Glyphosate should do what you want, and will not impair the planting
|> > of groundcover, but may need several applications for deep-rooted
|> > perennial weeds. It will not cause the trouble you are afraid of
|> > in any normal soils. Alternatively, sodium chlorate will degrade to
|> > salt, which will wash away, but will need repeated applications.
|>
|> Thanks very much, Nick, for your assurance re. Glyphosate. Have you
|> used it yourself for turning a lawn into a garden?

Yes. Grass is VERY sensitive to glyphosate, so you don't need to use
much and you don't need to do it more than once.

|> My concern about it was triggered by the following summary of research:
|>
|> http://unofficiallyoptimistic.com/?p=24

Yeah. New Age scaremongering. Some of its statements may be true, but
most of it looks very misleading - it reeks of quoting out of context.
I have tried to track down some hard evidence on the claims of the
persistency of glyphosate in the past, and failed.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Jeff Layman · Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 89

Eddy wrote:
> Nick Maclaren wrote:
>
>>>> When vinegar is used as a herbicide, does it act systemically?
>>
>> That is not a question Smile

>
> ? You mean all herbicides ARE systemic? What I meant, more
> accurately I admit, is "When vinegar is used instead of a herbicide
> but for the same purpose as a herbicide, does it act systemically?"
>
>>>> I would like to use vinegar on the grass, provided it has a
>>>> permanent effect on the roots.
>>
>> Not merely doesn't it have a permanent effect on the roots, it
>> doesn't have a significant effect on the leaves. It is purely and
>> simply a weak acid. You shouldn't take so much notice of the New
>> Age Merkins (which is where I assume that you heard of vinegar as a
>> herbicide and the other myths you have picked up).
>
> No, actually the United States Department of Agriculture is doing a
> lot of investigation into the use of vinegar and apparently USA garden
> centres have long stocked strong vinegar specifically for this
> purpose. All news to me too, but true. See:
>
> http://search.usda.gov/search?q=vinegar&requiredfields=spsite_id%3A12650400%7Cspsite_id%3A12-50-00-00&x=0&y=0&btnG=Go%21&filter=0&as_sitesearch=ars.usda.gov&ie=&output=xml_no_dtd&client=usda&lr=&proxystylesheet=ARS&oe=

That was over 5 years ago, and used a higher strength acetic acid to obtain
"herbicidal" activity. Why the quote marks? Because it is not herbicidal -
it simply burns off the growth above the soil. That is more or less what
paraquat does. If you want to see a different comment on the
"effectiveness" (there, I've done it again) of acetic acid see
http://cahe.nmsu.edu/CES/yard/2004/041004.html.

>> Glyphosate should do what you want, and will not impair the planting
>> of groundcover, but may need several applications for deep-rooted
>> perennial weeds. It will not cause the trouble you are afraid of
>> in any normal soils. Alternatively, sodium chlorate will degrade to
>> salt, which will wash away, but will need repeated applications.
>
> Thanks very much, Nick, for your assurance re. Glyphosate. Have you
> used it yourself for turning a lawn into a garden?
>
> My concern about it was triggered by the following summary of
> research:
>
> http://unofficiallyoptimistic.com/?p=24

The usual unscientific rubbish and selective reporting. Part of it states:

"In California between 1984 and 1990, glyphosate was the third most
frequently reported cause of illness related to agricultural pesticide use.
In 1997, the California Pesticide Illness Surveilance (sic) Program found
Roundup ranked as the highest caused of pesticide induced illness or injury
to people in California. It is not only the active ingredient (glycosphate)
that is dangerous, but several "inert" ingredients as well."

Have a look at http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/whs/pisp/97tbl4.pdf for the full
figures relating to that 1997 report. For glyphosate, there were totals of
11 definite/probable and 10 possible "Illness/injuries with confirmed
relationship to pesticide exposure". Now look at rotenone (the active
principle of that natural pesticide Derris Root) - the figures are 53 and 9
for the same categories. Even sulphur scores 24 and 30! Theer are many
other materials with a much higher score than glyphosate.

You may also like to read Monsanto's comments about the "toxicity" of
glyphosate:
http://www.monsanto.com/monsanto/content/products/productivity/roundup/cal_illness_bkg.pdf

Of course, you may not like to hear any of that, and prefer this sort of
thing:
http://www.monsanto.com/monsanto/content/products/productivity/roundup/cal_illness_bkg.pdf

If so, you may also like to know that tin hats won't stop the aliens finding
you. I haven't got a reference for that, but I'm sure that the truth is out
there

--
Jeff
(cut "thetape" to reply)

Jeff Layman · Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 89

Nick Maclaren wrote:
> You shouldn't take so much notice of the New
> Age Merkins

LOL!!!

I must remember that one.

--
Jeff
(cut "thetape" to reply)

Jeff Layman · Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 89

Jeff Layman wrote:
(snip)>
> Of course, you may not like to hear any of that, and prefer this sort
> of thing:
> http://www.monsanto.com/monsanto/content/products/productivity/roundup/cal_illness_bkg.pdf
>
Sorry - wrong link. Should have been
http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup080805.cfm

--
Jeff
(cut "thetape" to reply)

Eddy · Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 46

Nick & Jeff, thanks a lot. Well, because you say vinegar only "burns"
that which it comes into contact with and it doesn't infiltrate the
grass systemically (to reach the roots to deal with them as well) it
would be a completely bloody foolish of me to use it. Planting a fairly
large rock garden with dozens of heathers and ornamental grasses
gathered and ordered from all over the place, only to have grass
shooting up through it all a couple of months down the line, if not
earlier, would be madness.

Thanks a lot.

Eddy.

Nick Maclaren · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 430

In article ,
Eddy writes:
|>
|> Nick & Jeff, thanks a lot. Well, because you say vinegar only "burns"
|> that which it comes into contact with and it doesn't infiltrate the
|> grass systemically (to reach the roots to deal with them as well) it
|> would be a completely bloody foolish of me to use it. Planting a fairly
|> large rock garden with dozens of heathers and ornamental grasses
|> gathered and ordered from all over the place, only to have grass
|> shooting up through it all a couple of months down the line, if not
|> earlier, would be madness.

Yes. And it probably won't even kill the grass effectively.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Eddy · Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 46

Nick, just a quick bit of advice, please, on applying Glyphosate: do you
think it better to apply it directly after cutting the grass (i.e. "it's
more effective if it gets into open wounds") or to apply it when the
grass is uncut and maybe 3" tall (i.e. "it more effective if the spray
comes into contact with as great a surface area as possible")?

Thanks.

Eddy.

Nick Maclaren · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 430

In article ,
Eddy writes:
|>
|> Nick, just a quick bit of advice, please, on applying Glyphosate: do you
|> think it better to apply it directly after cutting the grass (i.e. "it's
|> more effective if it gets into open wounds") or to apply it when the
|> grass is uncut and maybe 3" tall (i.e. "it more effective if the spray
|> comes into contact with as great a surface area as possible")?

Probably uncut. And make it no stronger than it recommends - actually,
I would make it 1/2-2/3 strength. It translocates better when more
dilute.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Charlie Pridham · Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 262

In article ,
eddy.bentley@removeALLbutRESTvirgin.net says...
>
> When vinegar is used as a herbicide, does it act systemically?
>
> I am about to prepare a drainfield site (i.e. from our septic tank) for
> planting with shallow-rooted ground cover. It is currently grassed, and
> because of being a drainfield site (and also a front lawn!) the grass
> grows luxuriantly and needs cutting every week. Shallow-rooted ground
> cover will be much better, less demanding in terms of maintenance. So
> the question is: how to kill the grass without harming or disturbing the
> soil?
>
> It seems the alternatives are spraying with Roundup (Glycosphate) or
> spraying with vinegar. I would prefer to use vinegar because I
> understand that the residue actually enriches the soil. However, if
> vinegar doesn't work systemically we could find that new grass appears
> from unkilled roots after the groundcover has been planted, and that
> would be a problem.
>
> I have read that traces of Glycosphate CAN still be found in soil two
> years after spraying. This may disturb the delicate drainfield. It may
> also retard the growth of groundcover. Also, our drainfield-lawn is on
> a slope at the bottom of which is a line of hedge and bushes so if toxic
> glycosphate residue remains in the soil for up to two years it may well
> drift downhill in that time and retard the established hedge and bushes.
>
> I would like to use vinegar on the grass, provided it has a permanent
> effect on the roots.
>
> Has anyone experience or knowledge of this?
>
> Eddy.
>
>
Can't help much with the viniger but round up is completely neutralised
on contact with soil and will not leave any residues that will prevent
the growing of any plants after the grass is dead. You just need to give
it time to work especially at this time of year, the plants you are
trying to kill will die quicker and more completely if they are in active
growth.
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

Granity · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 1

Zhang DaWei;776089 Wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2008 13:26:50 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
> -
> [...] You shouldn't take so much notice of the New
> Age Merkins -
>
> Not a comment to be made in the company of a group of wig makers, I
> presume...

Why should the use of vinegar as a weed killer be considered organic?
It's a chemical just as much as Glyphosate or NPK fertiliser is, just
because you put it on your chips doesn't make it organic.

--
Granity

Nick Maclaren · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 430

In article ,
Granity writes:
|> Zhang DaWei;776089 Wrote:
|> > -
|> > [...] You shouldn't take so much notice of the New
|> > Age Merkins -
|> >
|> > Not a comment to be made in the company of a group of wig makers, I
|> > presume...
|>
|> Why should the use of vinegar as a weed killer be considered organic?
|> It's a chemical just as much as Glyphosate or NPK fertiliser is, just
|> because you put it on your chips doesn't make it organic.

Er, not quite. Vinegar isn't a simple chemical - acetic acid is.
More importantly, there are differences between the chemicals that
occur naturally in the biosphere, where there are bacteria adapted
to breaking them down, and the entirely artificial ones, which are
not always biodegradable.

The genuine concerns about glyphosate are that its degradation
products (i.e. that which it breaks down into) and the adjuncts
used in Roundup may not be fully biodegradable. I have seen very
little data on this, either way.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

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